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Corbin Trent's avatar

Anyone actually read the piece? Just curious.

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Justin Wells's avatar

I did and while I agree with the need for building real solutions like universal healthcare, public transit, and less of the means-tested "solutions", I do not see what you suggest as an overall strategy worthwhile. Having read the comments, I'm going to say that others agree with that assessment as well. What I and others seem to believe you're missing is that the Democratic Party you're asking to stand for these things simply doesn't exist.

The Democratic Party as it has existed for pretty much my entire lifetime is exactly the party that helped destroy the working class and this country. Reagan is considered one of the worst presidents for the working class and Obama called himself a Reagan Democrat. When Bernie Sanders ran for president the Democratic Party sabotaged his chances and in court said "we could go into a back room and smoke cigars like the days of old and choose the candidate and that is who it will be" in defense of those actions. The Las Vegas Democratic Party got taken over by the DSA and when forced out took the money from the coffers of the Las Vegas Democratic Party and became Republicans. These all happened the last 15 years and all the rest of us see that. We do not want the "pragmatism" of voting for a party that has specifically been the bane of any progressive existence, that has been justifying genocide, tossing trans and queer people under the bus, and doing EXACTLY what the Republican Party has done under the auspices of "reasonable centrism" as though they had to find the mythical "centrist voter" year after year. The rest of the people who have written these comments have seen the Democratic Party and are wondering how you haven't.

All this to say I think what people have come here to argue is not that the idea of building is wrong, but that your vehicle for doing so will never give what you want. There is rarely a time in your writing where you've labelled the reason why these Democrats don't follow through on these actions you've put forth and there comes a point that we need to ask ourselves why. Are you simply unable to see that they are not on your side? Are you unwilling to commit to the notion that the working class is not in any way represented by congress and what that would entail? Or do you see and understand but for some reason wish to put forward an agenda that will not work? What I have written here and what others do as well is that the Democratic Party as it exists isn't faulty because of incompetence, but because it was designed to be a smokescreen. The Democratic Party is set up to be a "fall guy", the one you root for but can't ever seem to win.

We were told that "being pragmatic" was going to offer us the salvation of a chance for working class power but that pragmatism has given way to fascism specifically because there was nothing that the Democratic Party stood on or for. There wasn't a reasonable difference between the two and everyone else was able to see that except for the Democrats. Or, more accurately, those who spent their life believing the lie the Democrats gave to the working class. We need to ditch them. Electoralism isn't a strategy I would get behind but if you are willing to try then the Democratic Party cannot be your avenue. Listen to what everyone else has written here and ask why they don't believe in the Democrats instead of trying to push that square peg into the round hole.

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Corbin Trent's avatar

I don’t get why people think it would be more likely to start and win with a third-party than it would be to start and take over an existing one?

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Alan Hodge's avatar

You do not reform a sewer by licking it clean, friend, and you will Never reform the Democrats by joining them.

I was in tenth grade when the peace and love generation ran like rabbits from Kent State, yelling, “Reform the system from within!” over their shoulders as they scampered. 20 years later the party had become a hard right authoritarian establishment tool, and it has gotten “progressively” worse every election cycle since. There are No liberal Democrats: we all left and what’s left ain’t Left at all; just a really ugly and unconvincing caricature of an opposition party that votes for every wargasm our parasites demand. If you want any daylight in your political strategy, get out of there.

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Rob Cusenz's avatar

I agree Corbin, it's going to be difficult enough to convince enough people with a strong/charismatic leader with a simple message for the "masses", let alone start a third-party bid...if/when we can gain the majority, then I think it's time to make big changes in Medical, Tax, Campaign...EVERYTHING! Also a good time to consider a third party. I think many will agree with the underlying problems, the question is: how do get into the position to legislate again.

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Doug McLaughlin's avatar

Because we have been trying to reform the democrats since at least 2004. I remember talking about this exact same stuff in DailyKos and democratic underground literally 20 years ago. What you are suggesting will not work. I wish it weren’t the case, but reforming the Democrat party is a fools errand.

Put your energy into something new and outside of the Democratic Party. Use that either as bettering ram to destroy the party, a la the Whigs, or force them to absorb the third party and its infrastructure in a way that they can’t avoid changing.

It’s that or violence at this point, and if i were a betting kind of guy…

You should read Listen, Liberal by Thomas Frank. He lays it out much better than any of us can in a Substack comment or post.

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dikran Tulaine's avatar

Evidence of various

attempts.

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Justin Wells's avatar

One of the reasons I gave was in the comment. When the Las Vegas DSA won the seats of the Democratic Party of NV the Democratic Party gave everyone parachutes and stopped paying their bills. You can find that here: https://www.socialistalternative.org/2023/06/29/pulling-out-the-rug-what-happened-after-dsa-and-bernie-supporters-took-over-the-nevada-democratic-party/ and here: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/07/nevada-democrats-harry-reid-machine-and-pro-sanders-forces-519919

From this we can see that the Democratic Party will kill any victory from any other group not already aligned with their vision, one of "capping" capitalist excess. We don't think taking over what exists will work because that's also not what voters want. With the stain of who the Democratic Party have been for decades it's that much harder to move in the direction needed when the old guard is willing to screw over any change and new voters will think the new guard is no different.

I'm not going to say it's the easier option, but instead that the Democratic Party as it exists will kill and sabotage any effort makes it the correct one. The Democratic Party is not for the ideals you espouse and see you as their enemy. The Democratic Party are closer to Republicans than they are to you and me.

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Maria Williams's avatar

Well said

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DancingInAshes's avatar

Trans people do need to be ejected. They’re a fad, a product of social contagion where losers and gay autistic kids could get validation and praise without accomplishing anything.

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Justin Wells's avatar

Trans people have always existed and are not a fad. Get out of here with that fascist bullshit.

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Bill Miller's avatar

Oh - just commented at noon

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MissAnneThrope's avatar

I did read it, Corbin. My daughter was a Bernie Delegate. We all witnessed the betrayal by DWS and the treachery of the corporation known as the DNC. I was in favor of Dem Exit in our progressive circle. It's unsalvageable; rotted. They acquiesced back in the 90s under Bubba. Now, there's so much eagerness for REAL CHANGE, across political lines, and no one trusts the DNC or RNC. People - as demonstrated in AOC's district - split their vote for her and DJT. What do they have in common? Their disdain for their parties, and their message of change. Find common ground beyond the old divides. Build from there.

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Rob Melton's avatar

Yes. You hit the nail on the head, AND change will require planks of a platform to build from the bottom up, not the top down. Like we used to do. My union has a standing committee that does this. I've served on the state and national resolutions committee. It starts with we the people, not lobbying a broken system.

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jeanne's avatar

I read this work. It's spot on, but the problems have occurred over years and corruption has become as ingrained as the third world we've become.

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Arthur Hays's avatar

This! That sentiment reminds me of a book called Detroit: An American Autopsy. Detroit got pegged as this failed Democratic city, when in fact it was just rampant and thorough corruption that brought it down. It's kinda like identity politics: gee if we could just get someone "------" in office then all our problems will be solved, when in fact the "------" people get in there and do the same thing the last person did which is play games. I've yet to hear how you clean up a system such as ours, but starting to believe it won't happen in my lifetime if ever. Not saying people shouldn't strive though.

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Bela Wood's avatar

I did.

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Corbin Trent's avatar

Thoughts?

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dikran Tulaine's avatar

Yes. Thank you. Very thorough. I discovered in the last election that Democrats are Americans too, not real people but the myth Americans for whom genocide is an unpleasant given and humans will not act if not offered profit. The aberration was called a revolution a couple hundred years ago. No 18th century start up said “lets do a profit share” to it’s employees. This was offered to investors. We all have our own Jesus, we all have our own Democrats. On the Evidence they are theocrat, money grubbing narcissistic, cold and frosty protestants with that narrow narrow world view. They took the profit out of National Health in Britain, the profiteers starved it of funding, so now it begs for profiteers to invest. Socialism isn’t easy in me me cultures.

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Bill Miller's avatar

Just to be clear, if “spending is out of control” it is *not* because the government spends too much money but rather it spends too much on things that don’t actually benefit the country and its citizens (which the author makes clear later in the post.)

Because we have a debt-based currency system, federal spending is the way money gets into the economy in the first place. Cut federal spending and you’re cutting the money supply. Then we end up with inflation, recession, depression.

The central problem is that, since the 1970s, monetary policy has increasingly been about further enriching already rich corporations and private citizens — while leaving the lower and middle classes increasingly at the mercy of the former. (And when it comes to profit-seeking, they generally have no mercy.) That is what made half the country angry and hopeless enough to vote for someone who would burn it all down.

There is one solution — clear to me, but probably too radical for the national mindset: it is time to dethrone the profit motive as the primary reason for individual and corporate activity. Profit-seeking works during the building phase of and endeavor - be it a career, company, or country. Yet once that entity reaches maturity, it must shift to a steady maintenance mode of operation. If not, continuous profit-seeking becomes a cancer that eventually destroys communities, educational opportunity, healthcare, small business, the environment, international relations — and the very human soul.

If you need any evidence, just pick up a newspaper or turn on the TV.

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Bruce Dickson's avatar

Bill, at the level of values, morals and ethics, a solution exists. It's called "for the highest good of all concerned." The phrase was innovated by educator, John-Roger, in the 1970s. It's now somewhat widely used. If you put this exact phrase, in quotes into Google, you see the rest of this rhetoric; and, a nice Google AI summary.

Why doesn't this idea have more traction? For exactly the reasons you state. In my words, the religion of corporate consumerism (greed is good) has strangled and pushed out al ethics, morals, values of a higher nature.

It will take a revolution of mainstream values to fix this. In my mind, the best case scenario is a Second Coming of Christ in the 2030s.

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Bill Miller's avatar

Thanks Bruce! I’m sure you’re right that a change of heart and values is what’s needed. Tho I think Jesus’ mandate was for each of us to become Christ-like — having that spirit born within rather than imposed from on high. (Admittedly, I’m not a biblical scholar though).

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SUE Speaks's avatar

Couldn't be smarter. Add overshoot to give this the urgency that to get cracking needs. Don't say "too radical." Say "necessary no matter what."

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Bill Miller's avatar

Thanks Suzanne!

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Rob Cusenz's avatar

Gordon Gecco started it when he said "greed is good"...

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Rob Cusenz's avatar

MILLER2028!

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Bill Miller's avatar

Aw shucks - thanks!

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David Simpson's avatar

Asking the Democratic Party to step up is an exercise in futility. Third party - start from scratch around a set of norms - not policies. As in - honesty, empathy, practicality, decency, and transparency. People are longing to belong to something bigger/better than themselves.

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Arnold Karr's avatar

You mean the Democratic Party that tilted the scales in 2016, 2020, and 2024 to feckless neoliberal POTUS candidates, winning 1 out of 3 because Trump was so despicable in his first term, but less despicable than Biden's anti-worker, pro-genocide shit show which Harris refused to turn away from?

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Jesse Anarde's avatar

Both parties are beyond repair. The problem is that a third party is not viable because the conflict between red and blue has a monopoly on the culture. It is going to take a cataclysmic event to break this. Right now we are in an Oceania vs Eurasia situation with billionaires backing both parties and watching the plebs fight over the scraps and they like it this way. This system works incredibly well for them. Nothing will ever be reformed in America without a large scale tragedy that even the billionaires and their security teams cannot avoid.

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MissAnneThrope's avatar

Sadly agree. Take out the "real Democrats please stand up" and we have some foundational aspirations for a future party. AND, distressingly, I don't see us pulling out of this death spiral. We're gonna crash & burn. It's gonna hurt a lot more people. And hopefully, those remaining can recover a few electrons scribing our ideals to begin again.

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jeanne's avatar

The billionaires will probably drop a lethal plague on us if we fight them.

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Pandora’s Box's avatar

They will drop something regardless

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Mino Akhtar's avatar

I gave up on the Democratic party after 40 years of total support- when they could not acknowledge a genocide because they are worried about the money they need for campaigns- money is cancer in politics

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Karen Nielsen's avatar

Exactly!! I swear if I hear one more pundit say we have to “move to the center” I’m going to scream! That’s not what people want! We don’t want Rahm Emanuel!

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

You just described the hopelessly corrupt Democratic Party perfectly, but then turn around and ask for the "real" Democratic Party to stand up?

I do not understand. The real Democratic Party HAS been standing up ever since the neoliberals took it over in the 1980s. There is no hope for necessary reform there, much less needed revolutionary change. The Democrats have made that fact crystal clear.

To say otherwise is to deny the last 40 years of American political history.

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Jeremy's avatar

The D party is a right-wing, fascist, genocidal party, like its R counterpart. It’s shameful and disgusting that anyone would try to make a living off of shepherding people into it by suggesting that it’s reformable and that there is some kind of ‘real Democratic party’ that serves people over profits. The Ds, like the Rs, have shown us who they are—enemies of everyday people the world over.

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Paul Cohen's avatar

Spending on tax-cuts for billionaires is still spending and it is the part of the budget that is most severely out of control.

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Cheryl Epp's avatar

We need a lot more spending giving people boat straps soI don’t want to hear spending is out of control. Taxing the wealthy is what we need to be doing! They’ve had a 4 decade free for all!

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Corbin Trent's avatar

I’m saying it’s not a spending problem it’s what we buy with our spending that sucks.

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Cheryl Epp's avatar

The problem is we don’t have a spending problem. We need the little we do have. The problem is an income problem. Tax the wealthiest among us who have had a free ride for 4 decades.

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jeanne's avatar

Or, perhaps tax everyone equally, a penny to the dollar, no write-offs. Equality. I saw how Obama taxed the life out of the middle-class to pay the insurance companies for the impoverished people. I want the poor to have care, but everyone needs to pay an equal share. And, Medicare ain't free! It's actually expensive, but it works, unlike the private insurance scams.

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Corbin Trent's avatar

Ain’t anything free but the more people paying for an item the less it costs. If you make it competitive it gets better. That’s the idea.

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Cheryl Epp's avatar

Many of the wealthiest among us and corporations pay zero taxes. That’s disgusting. They are the ones who use more of our society’s infrastructure, airports, sport team stadiums, the education system that educates their employees, etc. They need to pay their fair share and we definitely do not need to be taking away from people who barely have anything for more tax cuts for those who don’t pay enough now. And they will increase the deficit by 2.4 to 2.8 TRILLION $$$ for these tax cuts. The GOP runs on not increasing the debt, but they all have since St. Ronald. The only 2 presidents that have brought the deficit down are Clinton and Obama. The GOP runs on decreasing spending, debt and deficits and always increases it instead. And the reason they do that is then democrats have to pay down the debt and can’t give the average American as much as they would like because the gop increased the debt. That is called the 2 Santa Theory that an

American journalist, June Wanniski, a conservative commentator, and political economist who published it in 1976. The theory was Democrats had done so much for Americans with social security, medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc, like Santa, so Wanniski came up with the idea that the GOP run on tax cuts. The only part they don’t tell their base is the cuts go mostly to the top. I’m old, 70, and I remember when corporations and the wealthy got tax cuts by doing things that were good for society like investing in solar panels or something that does good things for for the country or its people, or gif forbid, the world.

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Cheryl Epp's avatar

It hasn’t been close to equal in decades.

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emily berleth's avatar

Yup! Where are they? Bless Senator Whitehouse. Where are the others?

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Constance Hutcheson's avatar

As a former nurse, I was expected to record 3 sets of complete vital signs every time I gave a nebulizer treatment- before, during, and after. When I asked my Director of Nursing how that would even be possible, given I worked night shift with one aide, and nearly 50 nursing home residents to care for, and at least 6 nebulizer treatments scheduled on both of my med passes. I asked her, “ Do you want it done, or do you want it documented? Because maybe I could find time for one or the other, but not both.”She pointed out that the other nurses were doing it.

“I saw that. Are they just making up numbers?”

She gave me a little smile. It’s got to be documented. That’s how we get paid.”

I didn’t last long there.

And while waiting for an interview at another facility, I pick up a magazine for nursing home administrators. There was a long article on “maximizing reimbursement.” I learned that each one of those nebulizer treatments was reimbursed ( at that time - some 15 -20 years ago) at $75 each. No wonder we had so many residents on nebulizer treatments, most of whom never seemed to have any respiratory distress!

So yeah; lots of waste, fraud, and abuse.

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Carrie's avatar

Biden tried to Build Back Better, but the oligarchy’s gerrymandered Congress and bought-and-paid for pols (including DINOs like Manchin & Sinema) blocked it.

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debra's avatar

Looking at political spending proves every point you ever make. The same corporations donate to BOTH parties, thereby ensuring the result they want: to get richer. All of our systems are broken--from agriculture to education to healthcare. We need to fix what's broken, not throw more money we don't have at it. Thank you, Corbin Trent!

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Paula Mae's avatar

"This isn't about spending more or less. It's about recognizing that some problems can't be solved by throwing money at them. They can only be solved by doing the work.”

Do the work. Exactly. Fuck appearances and the need to be popular or worshipped and just focus on doing good quality work with whatever resources are already available.

And if I may …

Doctors shouldn’t be in it for the power and prestige. I’m sick of doctors who won’t lift a finger to help unless their patients kiss their ass. I’ve never kissed ass and I never will, so no wonder it took decades to get diagnosed, and still I have to turn to alternative care for help that actually makes a difference. Where the fuck are the doctors who care about healing patients, and at the root cause level to boot? No student should be allowed entry into a medical program unless they can show that they care only about healing and curing their patients, and above all, preventing health problems to begin with. Both our students and universities care seemingly only about power and prestige. I’m sick nearly to death of it, rather literally.

As for the other scourge: insurance. It doesn’t belong in healthcare, except as protection from catastrophic health events, and insurance sure as fuck should have zero say in healthcare decisions. Health insurance in this country is what happens when people are allowed to run amok with power.

Pardon the fucks, but I am pissed to the hilt with justification.

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Pandora’s Box's avatar

Im sure there are greedy doctors but there are also many fine doctors working in a larger system that puts profit over patient. This is not always by choice. Large healthcare systems can be ruthless.

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